Christians as Anything But…
There has been a debate that had sparked during the last election as to whether or not Christians and politics made for a tasty treat. I thought the issue had died (mostly because it had been buried under a mound of linklogs) but it has recently been revived by our very own Junior Pundit. For those of you new to the conversation or those of who who have moved on…
Summary:
Jeremy Wall: Stem cells and abortion are bad. When does life actualy begin?
Harrison Beckmann: Life begins at conception.
Jeremy Wall: A death by any other name is still a death. Stem cells, cloning, or abortion; it doesn’t matter.
Me: Watered down “religiosity” (eat that Colbert) that exists in Washington makes politicians ineffective at representing Christianity. Oh, and Christians who are in politics are acutally heretics…
Harrison Beckmann: Fight, Fight, Fight!
Me: Save, Save, Save!
Jason Wall: What you talkin’ ’bout Willis?
Jeremy Wall: Belief changes a person’s worldview. You can’t debate the destination without questioning the journey.
Me: I am right!
Jason Wall: You are wrong!
Me: Ok, maybe just a little.
Jason Wall: …
Harrison Beckmann: Being a politician or running for office is not a sin.
Addison Todd: Sean, I see your point, but not really.
Up to date?
If I understand correctly, the place we now stand at is this: How can Christianity and Politics co-exist in a world where the two are constantly in conflict?
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This made me smile… hilarious summary.
Heh. Props to a hilarious summary sean. The reference to the “Junior Pundit” as you call him is funny too…
Since the conversation has been (somewhat) revived, I have a couple things to add.
First of all, Sean, you make it sound like from your summary that I am against witnessing and teaching people about the Lord. I’m not. I believe very strongly that we should make every effort to win people for Christ, and I know for a fact that real change will not be brought about in America unless we have revival.
However…
This argument that Christianity and politics cannot coexist is ridiculous. You do not have to compromise in order to participate in the governmental functions of our nation. I point to fine leaders such as John Ashcroft, Jim Talent, Rick Santorum, and President Bush as examples. These men, while sometimes making decisions that we may not agree with, have rarely, if ever, made decisions that were morally wrong while in office. Morals can be compromised anytime, anywhere. It is simply our job to be sure they aren’t.
Also, simply making a wrong decision, or sinning, does not mean you are going to lose your salvation. Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that you can lose your salvation. Rather, it says that no one can take the children away from the father. That includes the child, Sean. Besides, where do you draw the line. There has to be a specific point at which you lose your salvation. So where is it? How do you tell if a person is really following Christ or just playing around? What is the cutoff? The fact is, there is no cutoff. If there is, then Salvation becomes a simple matter of works in the balance, which is the philosophy of so many religions in the world, all of which get a person no closer to heaven than Atheism.
I do not mean to sound holier-than-thou. I am not trying to be too harsh. I have nothing personal against you, Sean. But you are wrong, and I do not like wrong.
Harrison,
I have a few comments regarding your post. I am glad you brought up some of the points that you made.
First, my apologies for the way my words echoed in your head about your stance on this discussion. I was merely attempting to wrap each bloggers reply into a humorous little bow to start the dialogue anew. No offense, whatsoever, was meant.
Second, voting records can never be confused with being Christian. According to adherents.com, more than 80 percent of congressmen have a claim to a faith rooted in Christianity. Does this mean our governmant is 80 percent Christian? We can both agree that this would be a foolish assumption.
Third, the statement that it is our job as Christians to make sure that our morals (I do not prefere the word “morals”. I know atheists who are moral. Morality is the conscience that we are all given as human beings, regardless of religious affiliation) are not compromised is right on target. But that doesn’t mean that you or I, Harrison, could go into a Gentleman’s Club and hand out tracts day after day and not eventually slip into the degraded mindset of those we are trying to save. James said that the only way for the devil to flee us was for us to resist him. Proverbs reads that “He that walks with wise men shall be wise, but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.” This sentiment is echoed throughout Scripture.
The statement that sinning doesn’t remove our salvation is also whole heartedly true. But the Bible has very specific guidlines for maintaining our salvation. Here is a short exerpt from Romans 6:
“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.”
This pretty plainly says that comitting sin and remianing in it will subject you to the reign of sin. This is a viable way of losing your salvation. If it weren’t then there would be no need to mention the dangers of sin at all. You ask where the “cut-off” is. You say that salvation is not black and white. It is. Remember that God likes luke warm less than he likes ice cold! The verse above stated that there is an element of “works in the balance.” Faith without works is dead. Obedience and discipline mean as much to your salvation as Christ’s death on the cross. Paul point-blank says that obedience to something makes you it’s slave and that we are slaves to righteousness!
I can put a billion dollars into your bank account (which is something that you couldn’t do for yourself) but if you let it sit there and do nothing with it, what benefit is it? Christ’s death was only the door God opened for us to allow us somewhere from which our sin had banished us. We have to stay the course and care for it lest it wither and die.
Back to the point, government is corrupt. Governments have always been corrupt. You’ve aluded to this in your comments. Why would I, as a Christian, put myself in a corrupt environment (remember the Gentleman’s Club analogy, and the verses from James and Proverbs) in order to effect change when I could easily accopmlish the same thing by “going into all the world and preach[ing] the gospel to every creature?” It makes no sense to take the more dangerous of the two routes and risk losing one’s salvation by walking in the middle of the government highway and expecting to make it to the otherside unharmed.
Let these words echo in your head:
“He that walks with wise men shall be wise, but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.”
Harrison, I hope this gives you a better understanding of where I am coming from. Iron sharpens iron just as a civil dialogue between Christians brings strength bewteen them. God is all or nothing, and it is ashamed that this post-modern society has placed such little value on absolutes.
I have one more apology to make to you, Harrison. My tone has not been indicitave of a caring human being. It is wrong for me to condescend any other human being and for that I am truly sorry. Mud-slinging and name calling have never been an acceptable means of communication between spiritual brothers.
Wow, this is a good entry for a chuckle.
We like to keep you on your toes here at ABA…
yeah, so we can dodge easier, you’re qicker on your feet when your balance is on your toes.
jk
That is the downside to a presence on the World Wide Web (of deceit). Everyone has an opinion and everyone’s opinion gets challenged. Most bloggers are on the defensive, which really isn’t an emotionally healthy place to rest. I know, Read, that you were joking, but the sad truth of the matter is that you point out a reality that is disparaging. For Chrisitans to have to balance on their toes to dodge fellow Christians…
I hate to think of the example we are setting for lost souls who happen upon our tussles and say “Man, even these Christians are at each others throats!” God help us all.
“Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Romans 15:5-6